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George
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 Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:33 pm Post subject: BMZ: A Christian is asking... |
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A Christian would like a response to the following questions:
Re: Muhammad's cave meditations
What belief system did he possess which informed his meditations?
Was his belief system rooted in Christianity, Judaism, Manichaeaism, or Zoroastrianism?
On what did he meditate?
From whom did he learn to meditate?
And further:
The knowledge of YHWH came through the Jew first, and blossomed into the full flower of Christianity through the revelation of the Word of God manifested in the flesh, that is, Jesus the Christ.
So let us asked this, did muhammad always know that "the god"-allah was the same God worshipped by Christians and Jews, or did he make this discovery after his "meditations" and subsequent encounter with the spirit in the cave?
And tell us, outside of Christianity and Judiasm, what was muhammad's source of knowledge and understanding of the God the Christians and Jews worshipped?
I mean, this fellow supposedly practiced an ascetic life of meditation.
Did he meditate upon Christian and Jewish writings?
If not, whose writings?
Was his meditations learn by rote (considering he was allegedly illiterate) and if so, who taught him?
Who was his primary guide and teacher in his meditional discipline?
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Can you provide some answers?
Thanks. |
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BMZ
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: BMZ: A Christian is asking... |
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Coming from a Christian, those are very good questions, George. Thanks for transmitting them here. Sorry for the belated reply, as I am very busy elsewhere and I just accessed JHR Online.
| George wrote: | | A Christian would like a response to the following questions: |
Yes and the answers are appended below
Re: Muhammad's cave meditations
What belief system did he possess which informed his meditations?
Muhammad had no belief system. He was something like Abraham, an upright man who did not believe in idolatory and knew that there was a God.
Was his belief system rooted in Christianity, Judaism, Manichaeaism, or Zoroastrianism?
None at all.
On what did he meditate?
Nothing. He would just retire to the cave, used to relax and sleep there. He did not do any meditation. may be he enjoyed being alone there. I have been to that cave.
From whom did he learn to meditate?
There was nothing to learn from anyone. It was something like Buddha going to a secluded place under the tree and relaxed. Thus he did not learn anything on mediation.
And further:
The knowledge of YHWH came through the Jew first, and blossomed into the full flower of Christianity through the revelation of the Word of God manifested in the flesh, that is, Jesus the Christ.
The knowledge of God came many years before the Jews. Noah had it. Abraham had it. YHVH or YHWH was coined centuries later. I don't think the knowledge of YHWH really blossomed into any Christian flower. In fact the knowledge of YHVH was transferred to YHWH and then YHWH disintegrated into a dried sunflower of the three co-equal persons of the trinity. The beauty of the YHVH flower was utterly destroyed after Jesus was gone.
So let us asked this, did muhammad always know that "the god"-allah was the same God worshipped by Christians and Jews, or did he make this discovery after his "meditations" and subsequent encounter with the spirit in the cave?
Muhammad must have known what the Jews and Christians believed in. He also knew what his compatriots believed in. He knew that the Jews were truly, faithfully and fiercely monotheistic and they did not believe in a triune God like the Christians did. Only after his encounter with the angel, revelations were recited to him and he learnt that there was only One LORD Almighty God, who was to be called Allah in Arabic. It was not importnat how many times he met the angel but what is important is that after his first encounter, the message of Qur'aan commenced. All this had nothing to do with meditation of any sort. Reflections and thoughts could have been there in his mind.
And tell us, outside of Christianity and Judiasm, what was muhammad's source of knowledge and understanding of the God the Christians and Jews worshipped?
None, except what he saw and heard. He himself was from an unbelieving tribe of idolators but hated idolatory.
I mean, this fellow supposedly practiced an ascetic life of meditation.
Many fellows like Abraham, Moses and Jesus aslo had no life of meditation. It was their nobleness, purity of their hearts, the quest and search of the True God that drew the attention of God.
Did he meditate upon Christian and Jewish writings?
No, not at all. However, after receiving the knowledge of Qur'aan, he would sit down and discuss with the Jews and Christians, who used to come and visit him.
If not, whose writings?
Nobody's writings. He was not a scholar and could not read scripts.
Was his meditations learn by rote (considering he was allegedly illiterate) and if so, who taught him?
Illiterates and ignorants in poor countries know how to relax in caves and caverns, George. One does not need a teacher, Rabbi or a priest to learn how to take a rest, relax and sleep in cave or under a tree.
Who was his primary guide and teacher in his meditional discipline?
None.
He went on later to become the primary guide and teacher to a nation of idolators and brought them to believe in the One and Only One LORD Almighty.
We can safely and proudly say that he made the flower of YHVH of the Jews bloom into the LORD Almighty known to the whole wide world.
Please convey my appreciation to the Christian who asked some very good questions. My pleasure.
BMZ
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God Almighty has no parents, no brothers, no sisters, no sons and no daughters. God Almighty also has no relatives, saith BMZ |
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JaiHare
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: BMZ: A Christian is asking... |
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| BMZ wrote: | | Coming from a Christian, those are very good questions, George. Thanks for transmitting them here. Sorry for the belated reply, as I am very busy elsewhere and I just accessed JHR Online. |
Too busy to access JHR??? What's going on?! LOL
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Jason
jaihare@jhronline.comפודה ה׳ נפש עבדיו, ולא יאשמו כל החוסים בו. |
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BMZ
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Joined: 12 May 2007
Posts: 491
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: BMZ: A Christian is asking... |
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| JaiHare wrote: | | BMZ wrote: | | Coming from a Christian, those are very good questions, George. Thanks for transmitting them here. Sorry for the belated reply, as I am very busy elsewhere and I just accessed JHR Online. |
Too busy to access JHR??? What's going on?! LOL |
LOL, Jason
Please pardon my slip. 
BMZ
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God Almighty has no parents, no brothers, no sisters, no sons and no daughters. God Almighty also has no relatives, saith BMZ |
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Baal
Joined: 06 Apr 2008
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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Hello JHR my first post here.
Actually Muhammad ideology was Hanafi from Abu Mutalib his Grandfather who raised him and Nasurian Christianity as his wife Khadija and the priest Nawfal who married them. Nawfal was also related to Muhammad as an adopted son to Muhammad's Grand Father.
And I hope you can appreciate how tolerant and open-minded such a society was prior to Islam. The Grandfather was Hanafi and his adopted son was a Christian priest. It does not get much more open minded then this.
So a big Thank you to Muhammad for Closing up his family's Open Mind. |
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Baal
Joined: 06 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| And As BMZ hinted, Hanafi was a religion that believed in Abraham however Hanafis also associated some things to Abraham that no one else did. Kind of how Islam associates strange miracles to Jesus, etc.. |
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JaiHare
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JaiHare
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Location: Israel
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Baal wrote: | | And As BMZ hinted, Hanafi was a religion that believed in Abraham however Hanafis also associated some things to Abraham that no one else did. Kind of how Islam associates strange miracles to Jesus, etc.. |
What kind of miracles are you speaking of?
Jason
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Jason
jaihare@jhronline.comפודה ה׳ נפש עבדיו, ולא יאשמו כל החוסים בו. |
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Baal
Joined: 06 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| JaiHare wrote: | | Baal wrote: | | And As BMZ hinted, Hanafi was a religion that believed in Abraham however Hanafis also associated some things to Abraham that no one else did. Kind of how Islam associates strange miracles to Jesus, etc.. |
What kind of miracles are you speaking of?
Jason |
They refer to Jesus seeing some dead guy, so he gets leg from a dead cow and strike the man and the man comes back to life.
Or that Jesus was born with teeth and was capable of speech. So when the soldiers who were killing all the infants came to his tents, he told them to leave him. Which is a very cowardly story because it shows Jesus saving his own ass and letting the soldiers kill all the other kids.
Or when it came time to get up on the cross he made it appear to the jews and romans that he was crucified. In the Tafseer for the koran, it shows that he sent One of his disciples to die in his place, (again very cowardly)/
In parallel, when Muhammad escaped from Mecca, he left his 11 yr old cousin Ali bin Abi Talib to sleep in his bed (cowardly) so he would get killed in his place, while muhammad ran away with Abu bakr. |
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JaiHare
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Baal wrote: | They refer to Jesus seeing some dead guy, so he gets leg from a dead cow and strike the man and the man comes back to life.
Or that Jesus was born with teeth and was capable of speech. So when the soldiers who were killing all the infants came to his tents, he told them to leave him. Which is a very cowardly story because it shows Jesus saving his own ass and letting the soldiers kill all the other kids.
Or when it came time to get up on the cross he made it appear to the jews and romans that he was crucified. In the Tafseer for the koran, it shows that he sent One of his disciples to die in his place, (again very cowardly)/
In parallel, when Muhammad escaped from Mecca, he left his 11 yr old cousin Ali bin Abi Talib to sleep in his bed (cowardly) so he would get killed in his place, while muhammad ran away with Abu bakr. |
If this is all true, I think your original designation of "strange" is a little too kind.
Thanks for the information,
Jason
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Jason
jaihare@jhronline.comפודה ה׳ נפש עבדיו, ולא יאשמו כל החוסים בו. |
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Baal
Joined: 06 Apr 2008
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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And here is Two more Books:
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George
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Baal wrote: |
They refer to Jesus seeing some dead guy, so he gets leg from a dead cow and strike the man and the man comes back to life. |
Welcome to JHR.
LOL This is the first time I've heard this story.
| Baal wrote: |
Or that Jesus was born with teeth and was capable of speech. So when the soldiers who were killing all the infants came to his tents, he told them to leave him. Which is a very cowardly story because it shows Jesus saving his own ass and letting the soldiers kill all the other kids. |
Jesus speaking as an infant is a well-known story in the Qur'an. The rest of what you wrote is news to me.
There is a fanciful book written in the 2nd or 3rd century that also records Jesus speaking as an infant, making clay birds that could fly and stuff. It is a book written by someone who tried to imagine what Jesus would have been capable of doing as a baby and is pure folklore. Muhammad must have heard the story. According to the book, Jesus' first words were:
"Mary, I am Jesus the Son of God, that word which thou didst bring forth according to the declaration of the angel Gabriel to thee, and my father hath sent me for the salvation of the world."
I'd guess that Muhammad had contact with some people who knew of this book, so he had Jesus' speaking from the cradle too.
The Qur'an also includes the clay birds that could fly story.
| Baal wrote: |
Or when it came time to get up on the cross he made it appear to the jews and romans that he was crucified. In the Tafseer for the koran, it shows that he sent One of his disciples to die in his place, (again very cowardly) |
Yes, the Qur'an makes Jesus out to be a coward.
| Baal wrote: |
In parallel, when Muhammad escaped from Mecca, he left his 11 yr old cousin Ali bin Abi Talib to sleep in his bed (cowardly) so he would get killed in his place, while muhammad ran away with Abu bakr. |
Where can I find a copy of this story? |
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Baal
Joined: 06 Apr 2008
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| George wrote: | | Baal wrote: |
They refer to Jesus seeing some dead guy, so he gets leg from a dead cow and strike the man and the man comes back to life. |
Welcome to JHR.
LOL This is the first time I've heard this story.
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Story was told to me once in an Arabic class. I did not have to take islam as a religion class, but the Arabic teacher, in his good intention to bring the muslim and christian students closer, would tell us about the 'nice' things islam said about jesus.
| George wrote: |
| Baal wrote: |
Or that Jesus was born with teeth and was capable of speech. So when the soldiers who were killing all the infants came to his tents, he told them to leave him. Which is a very cowardly story because it shows Jesus saving his own ass and letting the soldiers kill all the other kids. |
Jesus speaking as an infant is a well-known story in the Qur'an. The rest of what you wrote is news to me.
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Jesus speaking and saving his ass is in the koran. Realizing that he only saved his own ass is my observation. Stating that it is a cowardly story is my opinion.
| George wrote: |
There is a fanciful book written in the 2nd or 3rd century that also records Jesus speaking as an infant, making clay birds that could fly and stuff. It is a book written by someone who tried to imagine what Jesus would have been capable of doing as a baby and is pure folklore. Muhammad must have heard the story. According to the book, Jesus' first words were:
"Mary, I am Jesus the Son of God, that word which thou didst bring forth according to the declaration of the angel Gabriel to thee, and my father hath sent me for the salvation of the world."
I'd guess that Muhammad had contact with some people who knew of this book, so he had Jesus' speaking from the cradle too.
The Qur'an also includes the clay birds that could fly story.
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Yep, he grabbed couple clay birds, blew in them and then they came to life and flew. And then they claim that in islam Jesus is just a human and is not a god, lol.
| George wrote: |
| Baal wrote: |
Or when it came time to get up on the cross he made it appear to the jews and romans that he was crucified. In the Tafseer for the koran, it shows that he sent One of his disciples to die in his place, (again very cowardly) |
Yes, the Qur'an makes Jesus out to be a coward.
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To be honest, the koran is very ambiguous on how jesus pretended he was crucified. Only in the Tafseer (explanation) of the koran, do the writers come up with hadith detailing how jesus sent someone up in his place.
| George wrote: |
| Baal wrote: |
In parallel, when Muhammad escaped from Mecca, he left his 11 yr old cousin Ali bin Abi Talib to sleep in his bed (cowardly) so he would get killed in his place, while muhammad ran away with Abu bakr. |
Where can I find a copy of this story? |
From the Sirat:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sira/07.htm |
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George
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: BMZ: A Christian is asking... |
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| BMZ wrote: |
Please convey my appreciation to the Christian who asked some very good questions. My pleasure. BMZ |
Thanks BMZ. I have forwarded your response. |
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George
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Baal wrote: |
Yep, he grabbed couple clay birds, blew in them and then they came to life and flew. And then they claim that in islam Jesus is just a human and is not a god, lol. |
All of these stories serve no purpose in my opinion. Only God can give life.
| Baal wrote: |
To be honest, the koran is very ambiguous on how jesus pretended he was crucified. Only in the Tafseer (explanation) of the koran, do the writers come up with hadith detailing how jesus sent someone up in his place. |
Most Muslims I know tell me that Allah made someone else look like Jesus and that person was crucified. Makes Allah a great deceiver IMO, not to mention Jesus being a party to this deception. Guess that makes Allah responsible for Christianity.
Thank you. |
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George
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Baal wrote: | | And As BMZ hinted, Hanafi was a religion that believed in Abraham however Hanafis also associated some things to Abraham that no one else did. Kind of how Islam associates strange miracles to Jesus, etc.. |
Jason, I grapped the following from a discussion board. The subject is Hanafi and Abraham.
There is a huge scholarly lit. on this topic. The consensus among most is this:
1) Hanif in Arabic is changed from its original meaning in Semitic langs.
2) The root is h-n-p which occurs in Syriac texts of the 5th-8th centuries and refer only to non-Jews, non-Christians, and non-monotheists.
3) The word occuring in Syriac is either hanpe or hanpo depending on the dialect.
4) The word does occur in the Hebrew Bible (references to come shortly).
5) Later on (6th century) the Harranians (living near the city of Haran) were labelled as a tribe and called hanpe and hanif. These were pagans and practiced a Pythagorean philosophy.
6) Most early Muslim text writers saw these Harranians as hanif, but couldn't determine if they were a threat (pagans) or some kind of ally (scientists, bureaucrats, living in Abraham's town).
7) Finally in the 11th century, they settled on threat status for the Harranians and hanifs in general and proceeded to wipe them out.
8 ) No Harranians or original hanifs exist today.
9) The association of Abraham and hanif comes from the fact that Abraham was said to have come from or lived for some time in in Haran, and hanifs were clustered in Haran during the early Abbasid times. |
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BMZ
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Joined: 12 May 2007
Posts: 491
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: To: Baal and George |
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I wrote earlier:
| Quote: | | Muhammad had no belief system. He was something like Abraham, an upright man who did not believe in idolatory and knew that there was a God. |
And now I write the following:
Noah was an upright man.
Abraham was an upright man.
Jacob was an upright man.
Joseph was an upright man.
Moses was an upright man.
David was an upright man.
Mary was an upright woman.
John the Baptist was an upright man.
Jesus was an upright man.
Question: Did they all belong to same tribe, known as the Hanafi tribe or the Upright tribe? Where did I hint that Abraham was of the tribe Hanafi? Please don't humour us all here.
BMZ
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God Almighty has no parents, no brothers, no sisters, no sons and no daughters. God Almighty also has no relatives, saith BMZ |
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I don't know much about Islam, and I'm not too interested in it. I know that many Muslims make themselves into the enemies of everyone else alive, and that is just annoying. But I am not interested enough in the religion to devote too much thought to it. BMZ and George tend to debate a lot about it, but it doesn't touch me or strike my fancy.